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Over 30?

Do you know anyone who won their first orchestral job after 30? I'm not talking about moving from one orchestra to another, or even part-time to full-time. I mean first successful orchestreal audition ever over the age of 30. I've been wracking my brain and I just can't think of any.

10 answers0 replies

10 Comments

MV42

Dec 11, 2023

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It doesn't matter what age anyone is. If you love playing music, and you work hard, you WILL win something with time.

Edited

harpette

Dec 11, 2023

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I won my first job just after turning 31 and I can think of several others who did the same. However, I think focusing on this metric is sort of missing the point...you will win or lose an audition based on your hard work/dedication to the process, preparation and training not how many times you've traveled around the sun.

Unknown

Dec 11, 2023

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Me--I won my first audition at 32, and then have won five more since then, including three in my 40s.

clinton.webb

Dec 11, 2023

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I did 😇 started playing horn at 26, first PT job at 32, followed by lots of life nonsense, then first FT at 37. Not getting rich but so grateful for a salary

flute

Dec 11, 2023

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Replying to

That's amazing, way to go!!

2224

Dec 05, 2023

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"I'm not talking about moving from one orchestra to another, or even part-time to full-time."

The bolded here really carries a lot of weight in validating your implied notion that this is rare/not possible. Working your way up the ladder is the way of the game for most people. If you want to jump right to comfortable, upper-middle class, stable life in the city of your choice, you chose the wrong field.

The different audition standards at different levels of orchestra are significant. If you're getting close at auditions, don't take that to mean you can get too picky. It's better to get on the ladder with a more attainable gig first, so that you can get paid to gain experience and continue honing your craft. There are a LOT of people who win great jobs beyond the age of 30, 40, or 50. Most of them spent some time in the Podunk Symphony Orchestra in order to get there.

It is fully possible to win an audition well over the age of 30, but you've gotta be playing all the time to be in shape, and you need to be able to dedicate lots of time to practice. We get this faulty impression of a specific timeline when kids win jobs right out of school, but they have the privilege of living off student loans (or the bank of Mom and Dad) and playing all the time in school. By contrast, if you're an independent adult working a normal job to pay the bills, it becomes very difficult to have the energy and mental bandwidth to adequately prepare for an audition in your off-hours after full days of work.

The straightforward way to work fewer hours, while honing your craft, is to win a part-time gig. Then you can reduce your non-music workload and have more time to commit to practicing. Use freelance income to buy yourself more time to practice by quitting your day job, even if it means reducing your total annual earnings. All else equal, someone living frugally making $30k a year freelancing, with no day-job, has a much better chance to win their next audition than someone making $60k with a time-consuming day job who plays some gigs on the side.

There is no finish line in this career, there's nowhere you're "supposed" to be at by a specific age. But you can't fool yourself about whether you're actually making forward progress, or just stagnating and praying for a miracle to drop a career in your lap. This line of thinking is totally a meme at this point but I'll say it anyway: at any given audition there are maybe a dozen people qualified to play the gig. Your job is to be one of those dozen. If you're auditioning regularly and consistently not advancing, that is pretty direct evidence that you're not playing well enough for the kinds of gigs you're auditioning for. If that's the case, you need to be practicing harder/better, getting more expert feedback about your playing, and taking more attainable auditions. If you are advancing sometimes, you're doing some things right, but you've gotta keep going - do not get complacent, do not let your foot off the gas. Being great at this will never stop being hard work.

Some sacrifices are necessary to make this career work. Most people who are smart, hard-working, and competent enough to "make it" as performing musicians could have made much more money in another field if they so chose. If that level of material comfort is your preference, feel free to choose another career. There are a LOT more musicians in the world making decent, middle-class livings than there are living the kinds of wealthy lives that social media and reality TV make us take for granted these days. Comparison is the thief of joy.

If you're response to many of these costs/downsides is: "but that sounds ******, I don't want to have to do that," then feel free to go live the kind of life you do want. Your sunk costs do not matter. There is no timeline, there is no finish line, no matter your path in life. If you wish you were living the life of a lawyer or a doctor or a software engineer, you can start now. If, on the other hand, you want this career enough to be okay with working harder, making less money than you dreamed of, and moving across the country to a place you don't really love, then do what you have to do to get on the ladder.

flute

Dec 05, 2023

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Replying to

I appreciate your direct feedback.

I should specify my reasoning for the sentence you bolded. The reason I wasn't asking about people moving from part-time to full-time after 30 is because that implies that they had some sort of job before 30.

The questions I was posing was "how often do people find their first job after 30?" If they got their PT gig at 28 and then won a FT position at 32, they don't count for this particular question.

I would be thrilled to be rostered in a "podunk" orchestra, and would move basically anywhere to do it.

I am not expecting anything, or thinking that I deserve more than I have. I'm just a person looking for an answer to a question.

2224

Dec 05, 2023

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Replying to

Since you're set on this pathway, with all it's trials and tribulations, then let me add emphasis to the "expert feedback" component. If you're taking auditions for part-time orchestras and not winning or at least making finals, you would probably benefit greatly from more instruction, and the best you can find.

There's a lot of bad teaching in our field - teaching is HARD, and lots of people get a teaching gig on the side, but understandably prioritize their performance and personal obligations. A lot of people get held back in this field because they're too willing to defer to a mediocre teacher for years of their training. There are very few MASTER teachers on any given instrument. The easiest litmus test is to study with someone whose students are already regularly winning jobs. If you live close enough to any of them to study with them, do it.

If you don't live close to any of those proven teachers on your instrument, fortunately, there are great teachers out there who don't have that kind of track record, but you have to go out and find them. Try a lesson with everyone you can in your area, and see who clicks. You need to be willing to be critical (internally, of course) of people's teaching. You should be able to respect someone greatly as a player and as a person, and acknowledge that their teaching simply isn't worth your while. Conversely, someone who's not the best player in town and has a difficult personality might actually be a great teacher. A great lesson should smack you in the face with how productive and motivating it is - you should walk out excited to work on ACTIONABLE advice. Now, even the best teachers can't give you that week after week, but when someone's ideas and approach are new to you, it should be very energizing.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being on a slower career trajectory than others. Maybe you're less talented, and if so, that's not a reflection on your worth as a person or what the ceiling of your potential may be. Maybe you're plenty talented, and you just didn't get the right instruction, didn't work hard enough, or got sidetracked by other priorities in life. A slower or later trajectory can still get you to great places, but you need to honestly accept where you're at in order to take the most effective actions to keep moving forward - including taking lessons even if you feel "too old." Again: there is no timeline, there is nowhere you're "supposed" to be. 🙂 Best of luck!

Trumpet

Jan 13

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Replying to

Just pushing back on this a tiny bit... I went from part time college teaching to my dream orchestra (all in my late 30's), without winning anything in between except for one or two local auditions. Granted, I got to finals a handful of times, but technically I was not employed in an orchestra before winning my job. At least in my area of the country, if it pays, then the groups play very very well and those auditions are as competitive as some national full time orchestras. I treated every gig and audition like it was the NYP. I also worked very, very hard and had a very good coach, often doing several sessions per week. Cheers!

Mr. Potato

Dec 03, 2023

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Seems like an odd distinction? And yes, there have been many musicians who won their first professional engagement at or after 30.

Source: people I’ve met, studied with, heard about.